I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period — Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. — and the way you could feel it changing people.


“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”


What Smith is describing felt so familiar — how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.


Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) ,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.


This episode contains strong language.


Mentioned:


Feel Free (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) by Zadie Smith


“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction (https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019...) ” by Zadie Smith


Amusing Ourselves (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) to Death by Neil Postman


“Generation Why? (https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2010...) ” by Zadie Smith


Book Recommendations:


The Director (https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-...) by Daniel Kehlmann


The Rebel’s Clinic (https://us.macmillan.com/books/978037...) by Adam Shatz


The Diaries of Virginia Woolf (https://www.google.com/books/edition/...)


Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].


You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .


This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.